Comments on: Can 100% Certified Organic Grapes be Produced in Long Island?–Part I http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/ Wine, taken seriously and more than just about tasting notes. Sat, 18 Feb 2012 16:34:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mark Chien http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/comment-page-1/#comment-78 Mark Chien Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:50:44 +0000 http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/?p=99#comment-78 FYI.  I was the first wine maker and second vineyard manager at Pindar.  I arrived fresh out of the UC Davis viticulture program in 1983 and stayed for almost 3 years working with Dr. Dan.  It was an exciting time in the industry.  No one really knew what they were doing so every day was an adventure and learning experience.  A lot has changed since then and I keep in touch with a lot of old friends on the forks.  I'm glad they have you writing about them.   Mark L. Chien State-wide Viticulture Extension Educator Penn State Cooperative Extension College of Agricultural Sciences 1383 Arcadia Road Lancaster, PA  17601 FYI.  I was the first wine maker and second vineyard manager at Pindar.  I arrived fresh out of the UC Davis viticulture program in 1983 and stayed for almost 3 years working with Dr. Dan.  It was an exciting time in the industry.  No one really knew what they were doing so every day was an adventure and learning experience.  A lot has changed since then and I keep in touch with a lot of old friends on the forks.  I'm glad they have you writing about them.
 
Mark L. Chien
State-wide Viticulture Extension Educator
Penn State Cooperative Extension
College of Agricultural Sciences
1383 Arcadia Road
Lancaster, PA  17601

]]> By: JoseM-L http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/comment-page-1/#comment-77 JoseM-L Sat, 19 Jun 2010 21:40:52 +0000 http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/?p=99#comment-77 Mark, thank you for your kind words regarding my post. I agree with you that one must be careful not to impute too much to wines made from organic grapes. I think that, if anything, the character and quality comes out of the terroir, and as long as the winemaker doesn't break anything, the terroir perhaps shall express itself more clearly and cleanly under organic conditions, but it is still going to be very tough to measure objectively. Another, parallel, debate that is going on is the concept of "natural" winemaking, which itself has many ways of being defined. Natural, organic wine--that is, at least, a wine marketer's dream. I much enjoyed your notes from the workshop and especially appreciate the many references and links that you cited. More postings shall be made to my blog as I visit and speak to the vineyard managers & viticulturalists of the Long Island vineyards. I'm visiting several in the next couple of days, including Shinn Estate, Macari Vineyards, Palmer, Lenz, and others. I should have a few pieces ready over the next couple of weeks. Mark, thank you for your kind words regarding my post. I agree with you that one must be careful not to impute too much to wines made from organic grapes. I think that, if anything, the character and quality comes out of the terroir, and as long as the winemaker doesn’t break anything, the terroir perhaps shall express itself more clearly and cleanly under organic conditions, but it is still going to be very tough to measure objectively. Another, parallel, debate that is going on is the concept of “natural” winemaking, which itself has many ways of being defined. Natural, organic wine–that is, at least, a wine marketer’s dream.

I much enjoyed your notes from the workshop and especially appreciate the many references and links that you cited.

More postings shall be made to my blog as I visit and speak to the vineyard managers & viticulturalists of the Long Island vineyards. I’m visiting several in the next couple of days, including Shinn Estate, Macari Vineyards, Palmer, Lenz, and others. I should have a few pieces ready over the next couple of weeks.

]]> By: Mark Chien http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/comment-page-1/#comment-76 Mark Chien Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:34:05 +0000 http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/?p=99#comment-76 Barbara Shinn forwarded your blog to me and I read your article about organic wine growing on Long Island with great enjoyment.   I only worry a little bit when writers suggest that somehow wines grown organically are necessarily, if not inexplicable, better than those grown using more traditional methods.  It’s probably all a matter of personal taste and opinion, but there are a lot of options and the wine world is far too complicated to narrow down subtle quality indicators to a particular practice.  That said, we are always trying to connect the dots  and explain things in this business, that’s much of the fun and intellectual challenge.  I look forward to reading more of your writing.  We recently held a sustainable-organic-biodynamic workshop in Pennsylvania.  I sent you my notes. Mark L. Chien State-wide Viticulture Extension Educator Penn State Cooperative Extension College of Agricultural Sciences 1383 Arcadia Road Lancaster, PA  17601 Barbara Shinn forwarded your blog to me and I read your article about organic wine growing on Long Island with great enjoyment.   I only worry a little bit when writers suggest that somehow wines grown organically are necessarily, if not inexplicable, better than those grown using more traditional methods.  It’s probably all a matter of personal taste and opinion, but there are a lot of options and the wine world is far too complicated to narrow down subtle quality indicators to a particular practice.  That said, we are always trying to connect the dots  and explain things in this business, that’s much of the fun and intellectual challenge.  I look forward to reading more of your writing.  We recently held a sustainable-organic-biodynamic workshop in Pennsylvania.  I sent you my notes.
Mark L. Chien
State-wide Viticulture Extension Educator
Penn State Cooperative Extension
College of Agricultural Sciences
1383 Arcadia Road
Lancaster, PA  17601

]]> By: The crickets are chirping! http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/comment-page-1/#comment-67 The crickets are chirping! Tue, 15 Jun 2010 14:02:05 +0000 http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/?p=99#comment-67 [...] There has been a growing conversation amongst Long Island wine industry professionals about the likelihood of success farming grapes organically. Some believe the growing conditions of the region are insurmountable and render organic viticulture too risky or impossible. Still others are claiming that organic farming of grapes may not be “best practices”. Here at Shinn we have begun the three year process of obtaining organic and biodynamic certification. It is our belief that obtaining these difficult goals will challenge us to think more holistically about our farming system and provide us with a healthy environment. The goal started out as a selfish one. We did not want ourselves or our vineyard staff to be around harmful pesticides. In addition to that we now believe that we are producing healthier and better tasting wines that resonate the place where they grow. If you would like to read an indepth analysis of the question of whether organic viticulture is possible on Long Island follow this link. Scroll to the bottom to read some interesting comments from Barbara and others in our industry. Wine, Seriously [...] [...] There has been a growing conversation amongst Long Island wine industry professionals about the likelihood of success farming grapes organically. Some believe the growing conditions of the region are insurmountable and render organic viticulture too risky or impossible. Still others are claiming that organic farming of grapes may not be “best practices”. Here at Shinn we have begun the three year process of obtaining organic and biodynamic certification. It is our belief that obtaining these difficult goals will challenge us to think more holistically about our farming system and provide us with a healthy environment. The goal started out as a selfish one. We did not want ourselves or our vineyard staff to be around harmful pesticides. In addition to that we now believe that we are producing healthier and better tasting wines that resonate the place where they grow. If you would like to read an indepth analysis of the question of whether organic viticulture is possible on Long Island follow this link. Scroll to the bottom to read some interesting comments from Barbara and others in our industry. Wine, Seriously [...]

]]> By: Can 100% Organic Grapes be Produced in Long Island? - Wine news, tastings and reviews - Wine Enthusiast http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/comment-page-1/#comment-40 Can 100% Organic Grapes be Produced in Long Island? - Wine news, tastings and reviews - Wine Enthusiast Fri, 11 Jun 2010 08:30:07 +0000 http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/?p=99#comment-40 [...] whether or not organic grape production is even possible on Long Island. Check out the wine blog Wine, Seriously to read the article. One interesting quote: Barbara Shinn said that she saw no reason why full [...] [...] whether or not organic grape production is even possible on Long Island. Check out the wine blog Wine, Seriously to read the article. One interesting quote: Barbara Shinn said that she saw no reason why full [...]

]]> By: JoseM-L http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/comment-page-1/#comment-34 JoseM-L Wed, 09 Jun 2010 20:36:38 +0000 http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/?p=99#comment-34 Lenn, your point is well taken that we all make mistakes, and you are also right that the post does not include research published since 2009, but I have continued to follow the matter since the summer of '09 and hadn't found anything that substantially changes anything that I'd already written. The one piece of new information about growing organic grapes in LI comes from Barbara Shinn, in her own comments on the blog. Larry Perrine also added a link to an Australian source that is most useful in helping us to understand what is permissible for organic certification. In any case, I've not formed any conclusions about whether it can be achieved in LI or not. I myself consider this matter, as do you, something that is constantly shifting. I expect this to be a long conversation, and this is, as the title of the piece says, the 1st in a series. I next plan to start writing about the individual wineries and their approach to the matter of organic/sustainable/biodynamic viticulture as well as the question of natural winemaking. Lenn, your point is well taken that we all make mistakes, and you are also right that the post does not include research published since 2009, but I have continued to follow the matter since the summer of ’09 and hadn’t found anything that substantially changes anything that I’d already written. The one piece of new information about growing organic grapes in LI comes from Barbara Shinn, in her own comments on the blog. Larry Perrine also added a link to an Australian source that is most useful in helping us to understand what is permissible for organic certification. In any case, I’ve not formed any conclusions about whether it can be achieved in LI or not. I myself consider this matter, as do you, something that is constantly shifting. I expect this to be a long conversation, and this is, as the title of the piece says, the 1st in a series. I next plan to start writing about the individual wineries and their approach to the matter of organic/sustainable/biodynamic viticulture as well as the question of natural winemaking.

]]> By: Lenn Thompson http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/comment-page-1/#comment-33 Lenn Thompson Wed, 09 Jun 2010 18:24:17 +0000 http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/?p=99#comment-33 Everyone makes mistakes, but I think one thing that concerns me about this post is that it's based on old interviews (all over a year old, having happened in spring/summer 2009). When it comes to organics in general, and organic viticulture in particular, there are way too many moving parts, changes, updates, new techniques to rely on old, potentially out-dated data and opinions. There surely must be some more recent research as well (I don't see any articles or reports from 2010 either). That all said, I think that more people than ever agree that organic viticulture is possible on Long Island. That of course doesn't mean that everyone agrees that it should be done (copper/soil debate) or HOW it should be done. What is most important to me as a resident of Long Island is that more and more growers are taking a hard look at what they do in the vineyard and are improving what they do -- harming the land less and in most cases improving the quality of the fruit going into the winery. Everyone makes mistakes, but I think one thing that concerns me about this post is that it's based on old interviews (all over a year old, having happened in spring/summer 2009).
When it comes to organics in general, and organic viticulture in particular, there are way too many moving parts, changes, updates, new techniques to rely on old, potentially out-dated data and opinions. There surely must be some more recent research as well (I don't see any articles or reports from 2010 either).
That all said, I think that more people than ever agree that organic viticulture is possible on Long Island. That of course doesn't mean that everyone agrees that it should be done (copper/soil debate) or HOW it should be done. What is most important to me as a resident of Long Island is that more and more growers are taking a hard look at what they do in the vineyard and are improving what they do — harming the land less and in most cases improving the quality of the fruit going into the winery.

]]> By: jim silver http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/comment-page-1/#comment-32 jim silver Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:23:56 +0000 http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/?p=99#comment-32 It is a shame my single contribution to the discussion is an out-of-context pronouncement ( I don't recall making) that sounds wholely ignorant when taken as such. I applaud Barbara and David's herculean efforts to prove organic farming works, if not for everyone, at least for them - which is just as important.  I may not agree that it works, but I certainly don't appreciate being  portrayed as disrespectful of the process. It is a shame my single contribution to the discussion is an out-of-context pronouncement ( I don't recall making) that sounds wholely ignorant when taken as such.
I applaud Barbara and David's herculean efforts to prove organic farming works, if not for everyone, at least for them – which is just as important. 
I may not agree that it works, but I certainly don't appreciate being  portrayed as disrespectful of the process.

]]> By: Barbara Shinn http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/comment-page-1/#comment-30 Barbara Shinn Tue, 08 Jun 2010 20:27:00 +0000 http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/?p=99#comment-30 Larry, Thank you for your thoughtful comments and you are right, copper can be harmful to the health of the soil. I have considered this in depth along with many intricacies of our farming system here at Shinn Estate Vineyards. Where I have found sage advice and sound solutions is by working in tandem with the Demeter Association. Unlike the National Organic Program which has no limits on copper additions, the Demeter standards and practices allows no more than 3 pounds of copper per acre to be applied and if the farm is located in an area that lies outside the threat of downy mildew, any use is extremely counseled against. This “last resort” application theory has led me to experiment with several alternatives such as the equicetum tea (both fresh and fermented) and the use of organic biological controls such as Serenade and Regalia. So far this year I am very pleased with our use of Regalia, new to this area just this year. Farming in a Biodynamic fashion allows me to look at my farm as an interlocking system where firstly I create my own fertility. Over the years our vines have achieved a System Acquired Resistance where I can now employ low impact organic materials such as the biologicals referenced above and do not need to depend solely on high impact inputs. Biology takes time, and my farm is reacting positively towards our methods. I farm this way <em>not </em>to prove anyone wrong, but because I enjoy it and it brings me and my vineyard staff great pleasure. Sincerely, Barbara Shinn    Larry,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments and you are right, copper can be harmful to the health of the soil. I have considered this in depth along with many intricacies of our farming system here at Shinn Estate Vineyards. Where I have found sage advice and sound solutions is by working in tandem with the Demeter Association. Unlike the National Organic Program which has no limits on copper additions, the Demeter standards and practices allows no more than 3 pounds of copper per acre to be applied and if the farm is located in an area that lies outside the threat of downy mildew, any use is extremely counseled against. This “last resort” application theory has led me to experiment with several alternatives such as the equicetum tea (both fresh and fermented) and the use of organic biological controls such as Serenade and Regalia. So far this year I am very pleased with our use of Regalia, new to this area just this year. Farming in a Biodynamic fashion allows me to look at my farm as an interlocking system where firstly I create my own fertility. Over the years our vines have achieved a System Acquired Resistance where I can now employ low impact organic materials such as the biologicals referenced above and do not need to depend solely on high impact inputs. Biology takes time, and my farm is reacting positively towards our methods. I farm this way not to prove anyone wrong, but because I enjoy it and it brings me and my vineyard staff great pleasure.
Sincerely,
Barbara Shinn   

]]> By: Barbara Shinn http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/2011/05/02/can-100-organic-grapes-be-produced-in-long-island-part-i-of-a-series/comment-page-1/#comment-29 Barbara Shinn Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:52:39 +0000 http://blogwine.riversrunby.net/?p=99#comment-29 100% foliate management is organic. 100% foliate management is organic.

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